S02E12 ‘Still sleepy, but awake’: Annie O’Connell’s sleep wisdom, Pt.2


Annie Part 2: This is the second part of Occupational Therapist and Sleep Specialist Annie O’Connell’s chat with Michael and Dino revealing how the sensory world impacts sleep, some other sleep tips, her upcoming sleep training and a sleep quiz.

Occupational Therapist and Sleep Specialist Annie O’Connell joins Michael and Dino to discuss how good sleep is one of the biggest factors in quality of life. 

In second  part of this two-part interview, Annie discusses how the sensory world impacts sleep some other sleep tips, her upcoming sleep training and a sleep quiz. 

Some resources discussed by Annie in the episode:

Australian sleep health foundation

‘A clinical Guide to Pediatric Sleep: Diagnosis and Management of Sleep Problems‘ by Jodi Mindell and Judith Owens

Podcast: Why we sleep by Matthew walker

[00:00:00] Michael: Hello and welcome to the integration station, your go-to Pediatric Occupational Therapy podcast, brought to you by the O T F C group. This is the second part of the conversation that Dino and I had with Miss Annie O’Connell. In this part, Annie highlights how physical activity supports sleep, the sensory challenges involved in sleep, including thermo regulation, lullabies and Anya, and of course some fun questions and a sleep quiz, which any schools us in the answers.

The sleep that you talked about, parents before the sleep that parents. Don’t get. And the frustration, quality of life there, there are also studies regards to that and the impact on, therefore, how that manifests in the children or anxiety levels or just that buildup. Because I, I see that a lot in practice is that someone doesn’t get enough sleep and the next person doesn’t, and then that just perpetuates and then everything functionally just drops away.

[00:01:09] Annie: Um, there’s lots of studies that showed that the. Parents of children with disabilities have less sleep or less quality sleep than that. And then it’ll come different research will will talk about different aspects of it, but all you have to do is in, is to go into the, um, sleep deprivation studies and you can see all the problem solving, the lack of coordination, um, increased mental health.

Poor emotional regulation. Um, yeah. And then, and your sensory thresholds. So we know if you don’t have enough sleep that your thresholds are much lowered. Um, and so taking a ti a child who is tired into a supermarket can set them off so quickly than if you took them in when they’d had enough sleep. You know, just the noise, the smells, what they can see.

[00:02:10] Dino: So what about, um, physical activity and its influence on sleep? Huge.

[00:02:17] Annie: Huge. Yeah. Um, diet and physical activity, adequate diet, um, uh, physical activity often. You’ve just gotta be a little bit careful about. Um, What is the timing of the physical activity and if it’s getting too close to bed? But one of the biggest issues is, um, your thermo regulation.

Mm-hmm. So to go to sleep, you, your, your core temperature has to drop. So if you’ve been playing soccer, you’re not gonna go to sleep. Straight away training night. And so you have to act. And so a lot of our kids have got really poor thermal regulation. Mm-hmm. And so they’re really hot and there is a direct, it’s called a gradient sleep gradient.

So the quicker you can lose temperature from your core to your fingers and your toes, And dissipate the temperature from the core, the quicker you fall asleep. And therefore we’ve, as, we’ve got a huge thing to talk about winter and summer. Mm. And bedding and types of bedding and you know, if you’re too cold, you can’t get to sleep.

And if you’re too hot, you can’t get to sleep, but you can do things Hmm. To, you know, use natural products in your pajamas and you can look at a whole lot of range of thermo regulation. Equipment as well. So I’ve jumped from exercise, but exercise and temperature, it’s related. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and a lot of kids will kick off their blankets and wake at night, and so one of the things you gotta teach kids to do is when they wake at night, is have a drink if they’re thirsty.

Pull up their blanket, grab their toy, you know, like teach them. Yeah. These are what the skills you watch, or you might look at some of the, um, you know, ways to keep the blanket on them a little bit better. There are some commercial products out there now. So

[00:04:16] Dino: sometimes weighted blankets, producing lots of heat, the kids might not always be

[00:04:21] Annie: beneficial.

Weighted blankets productive. Yeah. Unfortunately weighted blankets got overused and got, um, you know, people didn’t quite understand what was, but I, I know that most families. Can tell me within three weeks whether that extra weight is, um, quite useful. Awful. Yeah. And it could be a so-called commercial waiter one, but I know granny’s who’ve knitted Yes.

Woo them blankets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, there’s other, other ways. Um, but you do have to be very careful about the temperature and that it doesn’t go over their faces. Mm-hmm. It’s a, it’s a but no different from what you do with a baby in a cot. Yeah.

[00:05:04] Dino: It’s, I look, and, and I think it’s, it’s important not to overcomplicate it as well because again, if there’s so many strategies, then people just think too hard.

Mm-hmm. But focusing on, you know, maybe one aspect can, you know, can be really helpful or useful. And if it doesn’t work, okay, we move. You can move on to another. Yeah. Sometimes just what’s the one thing. You would find has been the most useful in all of your years, um, and is one of your go-to, like, if there are issues with sleep, and one of the things you say, right, we’re gonna just start with

[00:05:44] Annie: this.

Um, put the child to bed, sleepy, but awake in the place where you want them to sleep all night. So,

[00:05:52] Dino: say that again. Sleepy but awake. Is that. Okay. So they don’t,

[00:05:56] Annie: they don’t fall asleep on the sofa. Yeah. Not in the car, not in the pusher.

[00:06:00] Dino: Not with a, not needing something. So the argument is can only go to sleep.


[00:06:04] Annie: object. Sure.

[00:06:05] Dino: You know, can a security OB object be the iPad?

[00:06:07] Michael: Not photo not, not the, not the same. Not a blue light screen, not the same

[00:06:13] Annie: movie. No. Um, look, the thing about, um, you don’t want anything novel. There are lots of kids who go to sleep watching Nemo every night. Yeah. Yeah. And Nemo’s not novel anymore because they have watched hundreds of, hundreds of times.

Hundreds of time. Yeah. So it’s, it’s whether anything is alerting them. So generally, not ordinary TV, cuz you can’t control it, but a video that they know. With a bit of red cellophane on top, turn, rest down. It’s possible. Could be nearly considered white noise. Okay.

[00:06:47] Dino: So there is, there is some scope for that.

Yeah, there

[00:06:50] Annie: is scope. There is some scope. Okay. And a lot of pe I mean, you know, you could even put them to bed half an hour earlier and watch half an hour, hour and then you turn it off. So they’ve still got that, but you don’t want it to go into the third video, the fourth video. Yeah. You don’t want the videos?

Yeah. One more. One more? Yeah. Yeah. No more of this. One more. It’s like, that’s it. One, yeah. This is the deal. And of course you can put that on a communication chart. No schedule. Yes. In some way. So there’s a bit of, um, that, that gives some parents some. Flexibility. And the same with sleep. Don’t expect a hundred percent perfect sleep every night.

Mm-hmm. Just say to yourself, well, if we get it four nights or five nights a week, that’s an improvement. Mm-hmm. And we know we’ll keep going like that and just get over that bad night and move on to the next night. Not, not. Really getting stuck in that. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you can get, you know, I can bring up a parent and, um, say, how was it?

And they had a terrible, terrible night the night before. So they were feeling terrible. But when I say, what was it like over the week, they actually had had some women good nights. Good nights. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you have to balance out those, those wins over time.

[00:08:08] Michael: So would it be the same for when you talk about sleepy but awake?

I guess it’s the same for adults as well. To get decent sleep, you probably wanna be. Getting to bed. Sleepy, but awake and not sort of over falling. Stimulated. Not falling asleep on the

[00:08:21] Annie: couch. Absolutely no watching, uh, Jane thing,

[00:08:27] Michael: I don’t know. Can’t watch

[00:08:28] Dino: anything anymore. After dinner, I’m on the couch and I start to already

[00:08:32] Michael: feel like

[00:08:33] Annie: they want.

Yeah. But reading a book is still really good. Um, Um, if you look at what happens in the brain when you read a book, compared to what happens when you look at your phone for Facebook, the different areas that light up are completely different, and the reading one is really calm and the Facebook one is buzzing everywhere.

Yeah. So if you are wanting to calm your brain, you are better off actually reading a book and. Lullabys for young children. Mm-hmm. Really lullabys. Mm-hmm. They rhythmic slow. That’s what music therapy is like. That’s what the, sorry. 60, 60 beats or less per minute. Any music and lullabys are that, and again, you can as get the kid to associate that with going to sleep.

Mm-hmm. And so I sang, I’ve sung my son to bed on the m r I table. In the middle of the day. Wow, wow. Because yeah, so start early, really early. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it could, it can be, it can be a poem, it can be a rhyme it, but you know, the rhythm, it’s that rhythm that rhythmical, slow, rhythmic stuff is still what helps processing taps

[00:09:44] Michael: into those really ative parts of the brain as well.

[00:09:47] Dino: Start patting on the bum when they Yep. Need

[00:09:50] Annie: to get to sleep and young babies need it. Um, and then round about eight to nine months, you start interfering with their sleep by you patting the bottom. Wow. But some of our. Families and kids, because they’re more neurologically compromised. They actually need, they need it for longer.

Need it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, so that sort of, but if you talk about the typical process and then you talk about what other kids sort of need, and if a bit of patching actually, and they’re asleep within, you know, 15 minutes or something, that’s probably quite reasonable. But if they’re patting for an hour or two mm, it’s not working.

[00:10:32] Dino: Hannah, you have such an amazing amount of knowledge. It’s really like, it’s not something that I, you know, I, I, you know, it’s understated to, to think that what an area of, of, you know, expertise and how, uh, you know, how much is in the area of sleep that we take, we really take for granted. But having said that, I wanted to go back to 20 odd years ago, because that was the first time.

That we’d met 20 years ago working in this, in this practice before I was very fortunate enough to take it on. And I remember, and I’ll probably say this more for the OTs that are obviously coming, you’ve mentioned coming into the practice and I. Remember the first experience I had working or observing, working with a child on the autism spectrum was when you worked.

Oh, really? Yes, and I, I was fortunate enough to be able to sit in on a session with you, and I remember leaving this session feeling so deflated because I thought I would never be able to work with a child. The way that you had worked with that child, because I thought it was just, um, I just thought it was very natural and such an amazing, but what it made me want to do was get better at,

[00:11:45] Michael: at working with kids.

I’m sure you’ve done hours of it now. Oh,

[00:11:47] Dino: I have done my hours of working with kids on the spectrum, but I, I, I wanted to mention that because, you know, you have been such a, Um, I think such an influential OT to so many other OTs over so many years, and that was one of my, you, you are certainly one of the reasons why I went on to really want to work with kids on the auto autism spectrum when it wasn’t.

It wasn’t an easy thing to do, and it wasn’t N D I S and government rebates weren’t around, so working with kids on the spectrum was not something that all OTs wanted to do back then either because it was hard work and they were unpredictable and families were stressed and I always, you know, always valued that you were so calm.

Always so very calm with. With the parents, but more so with, um, you know, with the children. And I think that was a, you don’t, you just don’t get taught that at university and, and, you know, thank being fortunate to be in a practice. Um, and I wanted to mention that cause it was so important cuz you, along with Veronica, one of the, the reasons why I really, really.

Got into sensor integration and really then, you know, have, I’ve pushed it onto everybody that’s worked at this practice, but it’s been such a,

[00:12:58] Annie: now I just wanna push sleep onto everybody. Yeah. Well,

[00:13:01] Dino: yeah, we’re, and we’re so interested in, continue to be interested in that.

[00:13:05] Michael: Absolutely. And a lot of our, and a lot of our new.

Therapists. You know, I, I could think of any of the new graduate therapists that come in and spend time with you and would say the same thing. And, you know, it would be just that, that notion of I would love to work the way that Dino’s worked and the number of years and, and having this opportunity to sit.

Amongst yourselves, hearing experts in the field. Mm-hmm. Talk about the, the role that you know each other have played. It’s just

[00:13:32] Annie: so sorry if any of the therapists are listening. Um, I have produced, um, six webinars, a series on the sleep ability, and I’ll put up links as well on. Yeah. And I, I did fight and got the copyright for the sleep wise manual.

Oh. Oh, I got that. Two years ago, I, I got a, I had to pay for it via kudos. Not much, but uh, that took me, Um, what’s seven years Wow. To fight for that. Wow. And Deb got the toilet, the toilet timing the same. And so my Emanuel got released in the middle of last year. Yes. Which is an update of the sleep wise manual.

Yep. Of the, and that’s all another 15 years and stuff like that. So, um, both of those, and I’ve just been back in talks with the OT Association and they are going to look at running a two day training in Adelaide. This year,

[00:14:33] Dino: we’ll make sure we put up that. Yeah. And is that for therapists or for parents?

Therapists. Therapists, yeah. So we, we’ll make sure we,

[00:14:39] Michael: are you running that? Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. It’s good to know. Good to

[00:14:42] Annie: know. Yeah. Um, and sadly for parents, sorry, we used to offer parent workshops for, that was one thing that, uh, ndi, um, N D I A just got funded out,

[00:14:55] Dino: right. So as in other, other service providers were doing them.

[00:15:00] Annie: No, um, there was nothing for it, for, for us to run the six hours of sleep education with follow up in the home. Um, the fee structure didn’t work, wouldn’t

[00:15:12] Michael: cover

[00:15:12] Dino: two. Oh, so they workers? Right. Okay.

[00:15:16] Annie: And so, um, it might, may get looked at again. Mm-hmm. Um, but. Uh, it’s not around anymore. So you really, as parents, you really need to seek your therapists who can support you.

Wonderful. Right? Pretty well. But you never know. You might run a sleep education evening, but this is what you’re doing with a podcast you’re starting.

[00:15:40] Dino: Yeah. But there is, there’s certainly scope for us to keep exploring the op because I think Covid really limited that. It, did you know that interaction with parents and parent?

I haven’t run an parent information evening in person for over three years, and I used to hold one a one a term. Mm-hmm. Um, same with teach the teacher information sessions. So, but I, I think, you know, those things are needed and they’re invaluable. Maybe they’ll, they’ll certainly come back, but, um, Yeah, look, I, that, that face-to-face stuff is invaluable

[00:16:13] Annie: in terms of It is.

And, and during Covid I did try telehealth and I found some families did really well. Yeah. Others, yeah. It, it was a complete, yeah. It didn’t

[00:16:22] Michael: work well. We tried it in our therapy here as well, and there were some that were suitable and there were some that, it just, just, it wasn’t gonna work. And that’s just, you know, the nature of, there’s no cookie cutter approach to therapy like it has to be.

Whatever’s gonna work for the family, and you have to try and make that, make that work. So,

[00:16:47] Dino: all right. We’ve got some, some, we’ve got some

[00:16:48] Michael: other questions. Questions I’ve got. I’ve actually got some other questions. I’d like to throw these in as well and I’ve even got a, a couple the two options for a sleep quiz. All right, so there’s, there’s two, two options I’ve put together for, for a sleep quiz.

Um, I’m gonna go with some fun questions first. Um, I like to reflect back on guests childhood. Did you have a favorite toy figurine or a game as a child? My

[00:17:12] Annie: favorite toy.

Mm. Isn’t that funny? I can’t really think of one. That’s alright. My favorite toy sand pits, I think. Yeah. And climbing onto the roof. Oh, could absolutely. I think. Um, I used to love mowing the lawn, but that’s not fantastic. Uh, I did, I did have Barbie dolls, so I probably, you know, and that probably is what girls might have had.

Um, but mowing the

[00:17:40] Michael: lawn and sand Pitts climbing active stuff. I wonder you got into sensory

[00:17:45] Annie: integration. Yeah, that’s right. Absolutely. Swimming water. Yeah. Lots of water. Yeah, lots of water play. Yeah. Yep. There you go. Sailing almost. But that’s, yeah. Yeah. No sensory player. I’m very, very happy. Happy with very, and now I’ve got, um, three year old grandchildren and, and I just organized the party games, and that was a delight.

[00:18:05] Michael: That would be, you would be, oh my God, I’d love to come to one of your parties as. Fun here is a, here is a white noise machine too.

[00:18:12] Dino: Uh, no. I’d be putting ’em all to sleep. And

[00:18:14] Michael: three sleeping lions who used to sleep for the longest. Sleeping logs are jokes. Um, Do you have a, a favorite song artist or someone you come back to when you need a, a pick me up.

You mentioned a few lullabies and stuff, but is music something that you use as a regulator?

[00:18:34] Annie: I’m in a choir. Are you’re in a choir? Yeah. Oh, fantastic. And, and may it be by Enya is one of my favorite. Enya you

[00:18:41] Michael: know, Enya, I, I have very vivid memories of Enya are year four. Um. Uh, teacher used to play Enya when we were doing any sort of written work, and I just remember it would help.

Everybody’s writing was so much better. Everybody just, and, and the level just dropped. I’ve got sail away stuck in my head. Cause that, that, that album, she was massive. And I remember, and you lived in the castle and all this stuff anyway, but Enya mm, very, very calming. Um, you, you can answer this one if you want to.

You don’t have to. Did you have a celebrity teen? A, a, a teenage celebrity crush? The face can’t see the expression.

[00:19:30] Annie: Um, well, we all had the Beatles and the Monkeys. Yeah. Yeah. So you would’ve had to and then, um, Oh God, I can’t remember. What’s the Partridge

[00:19:40] Michael: Family? Oh, oh yeah. My goodness.

[00:19:42] Dino: You are, well, like really showing shocking Age is a factor in, in the Partridge Family would be the equivalent to, uh, say, um, what nowadays, what would be the, um, modern family maybe?

Oh, some, some sick comments. I don’t know.

[00:19:59] Michael: It’s a shocker. They’re great at the time, but that’s sort of thing TV shows in those periods. But people were, but my

[00:20:05] Annie: first, the first movie I ever went to with. My girlfriends was The Monkeys. Yeah, that’s,

[00:20:10] Michael: how do you like the

[00:20:12] Dino: Monkeys? Did you? The first, one of the very first boy bands manufactured Boy Bands and monkeys

[00:20:17] Annie: and the first, but they played their instruments as well.

And the first concert I ever went to was Chuck Berry, which was Oh wow. Hilarious. Yeah.

[00:20:23] Michael: There you go. See yeah, the classics. Absolutely.

[00:20:27] Annie: That’s how old I am.

[00:20:29] Michael: Um, would you rather see the future or go back in time?

[00:20:37] Annie: Mm. That’s funny. I, Hmm. You see, I went back in time. I wouldn’t wanna have to be a servant. Well, I always say

[00:20:48] Michael: back in, I always say back in times, like, if you, you wanted to see something historical or

[00:20:53] Annie: future, I would, I would love to have been around in 18 hundreds as a a naturalist. Wow. You know, I think that would be really, really fantastic.

A botanist or something like that, because the world, I think the world’s depleted in natural stuff. And, um, some of the stories of going around the world and having an adventure to find a new place, you know, going glamorous island clap. Yes. Islands. You know, that sort of to travel the seas. Yes. I, I could do that.

Just jump on

[00:21:25] Michael: board with. Charles, Mr. Darwin, and just go for a boat. Ride with him. See what? See what you can find.

[00:21:31] Annie: Yeah. And Wallace. Wallace. Yeah. I really like Wallace. I’d happily. We were planning a trip to go follow Wallace’s around the journey. Oh, yeah, yeah. The journey. And then Covid came. So Covid,

[00:21:44] Michael: it’s up.

[00:21:45] Dino: Let’s get to mention in every, every

[00:21:47] Michael: podcast it does. We’ll have a, we’ll have a whole Covid podcast. Um. Okay, I got two sleep. Uh, I’ll give you some options. So there’s a, there’s a sleep quiz, which is about three most common dreams. Recurring dreams is based on the A survey or 10 most common sleep disorders.

And this is, I’ll take the sleep disorder, sleep disorders. Oh, wow. All right, frog. It probably do both. But anyway. So can you give me, and there’s no particular order. What you think the 10 most common sleep disorders are?

[00:22:17] Annie: So the breathing disorders, like sleep apnea. Yep. Got that down. Yep, that’s fine. The movement disorders, like the periodic limb movement, dis disorder, restless leg syndrome.

Yep. That’s two there. Uh, there, there would be various insomnias, so they would

[00:22:32] Michael: actually, yeah, well, insomnia’s just one is like

[00:22:34] Annie: one. No, there’s about. There’s heaps of different in some, I

[00:22:38] Michael: should have actually asked you first before I did this, uh, quiz because you would have, it’d be more than 10 probably, but Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:22:44] Annie: I’ve got insomnia. Yeah. Um, and so the, if you take the children, it’s, um, sleep, sleep association, sleep disorder, as they, they got that. That means they associate going to sleep with the parents.

[00:22:56] Michael: They don’t. But I’m gonna add that as an 11th. That’s a bonus point.

[00:22:59] Annie: So, yeah, that’s, so there’s um, there’s sort of, uh, parents having difficulties with routines.

Yep. So getting to sleep, delayed sleep phase, advanced sleep phase. Um, teeth grinding. Yep. That’s in there. The practices. Yep. Um, and then you have the incontinence as well. Yeah. If you have, um, the wedding or anything else like that, um, what other words would they use? Um, there’s one, an narcolepsy Yes. And.

Ooh, good. Um,

[00:23:35] Michael: there’s one that my, my dad does regularly

[00:23:37] Annie: snoring, but that goes with the apnea and the breathing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, true. That’s fair. Well, no, no, no. You can have apnea without snoring. Okay. But, um, snoring. Uh, normally may indicate the apnea you can snore and still not have a sleep problem. Yeah.

Which is my

[00:23:54] Michael: son a

[00:23:55] Dino: clinical disorder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Noah has

[00:23:58] Annie: that. Yeah. Um, but I mean, there’s things like, um, sleep problems when you’re pregnant, like there’s a, a clinical diagnosis within that similar, um, if you look at depression, there’s actual sleep disorders that go with. Depression as

[00:24:16] Michael: such.

I feel like I’ve opened a Pandora’s box here. I I, I got the top this over. I think this is like the, this is the sleep association’s like website and it had like top 10, most, most common. Um, but I, I don’t know if. If they’ve realized that they haven’t consulted you

[00:24:34] Annie: about, no. In the clinical guide there is over 100 sleep disorders.

Wow. For all age groups.

[00:24:41] Michael: So that’s how, that’s how much of an

[00:24:42] Annie: impact it has, you know? Yeah. And, and they probably talk. The most about, um, the insomnias. Yes. Um, and then they might talk about, um, the movement and the breathing Yeah. Disorders. Yeah. And under each of those, there’s, there’s a whole multiple, multiple ones.

The other ones on the, and ones that the movement would be sleepwalk. Surely yes. Oh, we haven’t even got into sleep. Talking sleepwalk. Yeah. Sleep terrors. Okay. They’re, they’re on there. I’ll give you those. Yep. And then you have the, um, rapid eat eating disorders, rapid eye Movement

[00:25:13] Michael: behavior disorder. I

[00:25:14] Annie: hadn’t heard of that.

Yeah, that’s, that’s not as, yeah, it is. Okay. And, and definitely if, um, you act out your dreams, stuff like that. Yeah. Um, that’s another one. It’s amazing

[00:25:24] Michael: how active our brain is in sleep.

[00:25:26] Annie: Yes. And, um, if you have this rem. Disorder and you actually act out your dream. You, you are inhibited when you’re dreaming.

Yep. So you don’t move. Yep. Except for eyelids, eyes. And if you have, if you’re disinhibited, you can act out your dreams and you can kick your partner and, um mm-hmm.

[00:25:48] Michael: Everything.

[00:25:49] Dino: And you do, all people do pe does everyone dream? Yes. And some people just don’t remember that. Their dreams most don’t.

[00:25:55] Annie: Yeah.

Because I think,

[00:25:56] Dino: I don’t dream.

[00:25:58] Annie: I think you would

[00:25:59] Dino: do. I, I must. I’m sure that I must, but I just don’t remember them. I don’t remember that I

[00:26:04] Annie: have, which is good because you’re just processing. Right. Which is really, really, really good. But some people remember their dream. Parents will tell you that, um, their sleep has been so broken.

You go into the non-REM sleep when you’re sleep deprived. And only after you’ve sort of had enough in, in the rhythm that’s happening, you go into your dream sleep and the parents who finally get more sleep will start telling you that they’re dreaming a lot more. So they have been quite deprived and they feel generally emotionally a lot better, right?

Because they’ve had interesting good dreams or better dreams. Yeah. Yeah. Or more dreams. That’s probably, and so if you look at how it happens overnight, your dreams are quite short. In, in the first third of the night, there’s not many dreams, but you can have sleep terrors and then, um, In the last, you said of the night, the dreams start very short and they get longer as the night progresses.

So there’s a whole pattern that happens and you can often work out what the sleep disorder is by what the time is that they wait. Ah. So you talked about being a detective. There’s lots to detect. Yeah.

[00:27:20] Dino: Gosh, what about recurring dreams?

[00:27:23] Annie: I’m not a dream expert, and I, I don’t go there.

[00:27:26] Michael: Oh, so I’m not gonna an next Don’t.

No, no. Top three. Top three recurring dreams. Accords according to amer’s sleep. American sleep. Guess you have a guess. Stab in the dark. Just top three. Um, recurring

[00:27:39] Dino: dream about, I don’t know, falling. That’s number one. Um,

[00:27:45] Annie: something rushing, disorganization,

[00:27:49] Dino: sort of. Uh, I, I think pe some people can have like either a, a loved one or somebody, um, dying or, well, the

[00:27:57] Michael: next one they said was being chased.

Yeah. Being chased by, you know, being running away from someone, honestly. I know. Yeah. The third one’s losing teeth. Oh,

[00:28:07] Annie: I don’t agree with that. Well,

[00:28:09] Michael: see,

[00:28:10] Dino: I’ve never had a dream about losing tea.

[00:28:11] Michael: This is am merry sleep, apparently.

[00:28:13] Annie: But anyway. Oh, well I, I don’t think I’ve ever had a dream about losing sleep.

[00:28:17] Michael: I dunno what, I dunno what of the dreams mean.

[00:28:19] Dino: This is relevant. And this is probably, and I know it’s what about. Things that people ta, you know, do herbal teas and these things help

[00:28:29] Annie: get to sleep. Generally, if, if you, if it’s a positive association and there was a really good article that’s just come out of Italy and they went back and start looking at some of the herbal.

Stuff. Mm-hmm. And going through what is the actual chemicals in some of the herbal stuff. And they’re not poo-pooing it at all. They’re sort of saying we need to learn a lot more. And there’s a big push for people to try more natural products, um, or natural in sort of herbs and things like that. Mm-hmm.

And um, so yes, there are some, um, that will help, but basic things like magnesium. Um, and particularly for our kitties, um, because that helps the muscles relax. Yes, relax. Yeah. And, uh, it’s recovery as well. It’s, yeah. So I buy, I buy, um, like the Epson salts and have it in my bath and stuff like that. Um, and that’s not, not only cause I’ve got sore muscles, but I, it also I think, helps with sleep.

But, but we, you know, the other thing which we haven’t even talked about is iron or ferritin levels. Because all those Yes. Movement difficulties that we talked about. Mm, yeah. The basis of a lot of them are, and a lot of our kids are anemic. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or their diets are limited, and so if they’re very restless, um, restless at night can be.

It could be sleep aping, it could be a breathing problem, it could be a thermo regulation problem. It could be a movement disorder. Hundreds of things. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of things. But that, but that’s the first three that you actually, um, look at. Look at. When they’re really, and a lot of our kids are very restless.

Yeah, very restless,

[00:30:13] Dino: but not a small glass of pork before birds. Well,

[00:30:17] Michael: you talked about the Italians and the herbal stuff. They’re very big on herbal digestive, which is, it’s a big cultural thing. Like, and they would have that at night and you know, alcohol’s not great at night. I get that. But you know, there, I guess there’s merit to herbal remedies, tea, different to alcohol, but herbal remedies is a.

Something that’s

[00:30:36] Annie: definitely a, a, a healthy snack. Yep. Before bed is useful. A little bit of sugar has been shown to sleep as well, so, um, grandma’s oatmeal, cookies and milk. Actually it’s got trien in Iten is an amino acid. Turkey. Yeah. Turkey almonds. Some dairy products. Drifen, um, is the beginning. Um, it ends up as melatonin in Melotonin, right?

Yeah. So there are some studies which look at trien supplements. Yep. Had some bad press cuz they had bad dose ah, at one stage. So it got mucked around in the states. But if you, um, we often used to give charts out about sleep foods and get kids to choose. Like banana, apple and peanut butter or something like that.

And they would choose their bed snack. And I didn’t mind if they thought it was a placebo or not, but Right. It’s got, they’re all tripped from foods.

[00:31:41] Michael: Right. All right.

[00:31:42] Annie: Okay. And, but I think some. Times. Just having that little quiet time of making a special time to have a snack, whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and help.

And then that’s part of the routine. You have your book and you clean your teeth. Mm-hmm. And you know, it’s, it’s time, it’s routine. There’s time with parent. Yep. Sleep routines,

[00:32:01] Michael: key.

[00:32:03] Annie: Definitely. Definitely. When sleep is not in a routine, it’s much harder. But some cultures, yeah. Right. Might choose not to have.


[00:32:15] Michael: Hmm. All right. Well I am gonna, I dunno how I’m gonna sleep tonight with all that information. Maybe I’ll put the podcast on and listen to it and see if that helps me outta sleep. But, um, it might be too alerting cuz the amount of information that has come from tonight is, is we are very, very lucky to have had you on tonight.

So we thank you very much. Yeah, my pleasure. Um, and we could have done this for hours. Because there’s, as you said, there’s so much there. There’s more information, a massive, massive topic. Well,

[00:32:46] Annie: the fact that I can talk for two days straight

[00:32:50] Michael: about sleep and not put anyone to sleep is good.

[00:32:53] Annie: Yeah. Means it’s, but, um, you know why We Sleep by Matthew Walker’s a great book and there’s a really good podcast out there.

It’s a two hour one, and it’d be parents listen to it for yourself. Absolutely. If you know any adult who is not sleeping and wants to be convinced. Um, Matthew Walker will convince you that you need to look, look after your,

[00:33:15] Michael: I will link it in the show notes. Um,

[00:33:18] Annie: very, very, uh, it’s with, um,

He’s like, that’s what a meant.

[00:33:28] Michael: Joe. Joe. Joe Rogan. Joe

[00:33:30] Annie: Rogan. Yeah. I wouldn’t say um, the Curry. Oh,

[00:33:34] Michael: Josh Joe.

[00:33:36] Dino: It’s with Rogan. No. Joe Rogan. Yeah. Here’s some interesting people on his, yeah. Okay.

[00:33:40] Annie: Yeah. So it’s a podcast, a two hour interview with him. And I have actually, um, used that with a whole lot of adults.

Yeah. Right. Not work related necessarily, just to say, listen, I think your sleep is actually perhaps impacting on what’s actually happening to you. Yeah. Yeah. So the therapist, it’s great for the therapists to watch, but parents as well.

[00:34:05] Dino: Yeah. Well, on that note, I’ve, I know you mentioned before that you were starting to not work clinically as much, but I hope I stopped clinical.

Well, I hope you still. Can continue to provide that education for OTs in, in the area of sleep and keep doing those things because that’s very much needed. Mm. Um, and you’re young enough, you can do it for a few more years. Absolutely.

[00:34:28] Annie: Well, and, and then the webinars make it, you know, possible as well because I think, um, What, what we’ve, what I’ve shown with training is that this, um, therapists skill, knowledge, and confidence about doing sleep intervention pretty well improves by about 40% if they do the training.

Wow. And that’s really good. That’s. And, and that therefore, um, I think they, you don’t have to, you’re not reinventing the wheel. You’re starting. Yeah. And then your areas can develop from

[00:35:00] Dino: there. Really. Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:35:03] Michael: Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and for your continued support.

Please subscribe to the integration station on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And feel free to give us a short review if you have 30 seconds. If you have any questions you’d like discussed Dino, and I hope to have a q and a episode in the future. So please send any questions to the integration station email podcast au or via the ot ffc website, ot ffc au slash podcasts, and we’ll try and answer them on an episode.

And as always, shout out to you Fletch. Until next time, it’s goodbye from me.

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